5. Mutual Aid Toolkit with Dean Spade

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The words mutual aid seem to be on everyone’s lips right now. What exactly is mutual aid? And how do we set up a mutual aid project that makes the impact our communities need? Dean Spade walks us through the basics of mutual aid, flags some common pitfalls that can shift mutual aid efforts toward charity or social service models, the dangers of demobilizing political engagement, and the tools folks can use to get started today.

Dean has been active in movements to end poverty, criminalization, and immigration enforcement over the last 23 years. In 2002, he founded the Sylvia Rivera Law Project, a nonprofit collective that provides free legal help to low-income people and people of color who are trans, intersex, and/or gender non-conforming, and he works to build trans resistance rooted in racial and economic justice. He is the author of Normal Life: Administrative Violence, Critical Trans Politics and the Limits of Law (Duke University Press 2015).

Show Notes:
Here are links to things we reference in this episode

These two sites are full of goodies. Here are some that Dean thought you might be interested in.

Episode dedication:

This episode was dedicated to Lorena Borjas who died in April of complications related to COVID-19. Read more in The New York Times: Lorena Borjas, Transgender Immigrant Activist, Dies at 59 and The New Yorker: Remembering Lorena Borjas, the Mother of a Trans Latinx Community. Rest in power Lorena Borjas.

Episode Transcript

Becka Tilsen:
Hello everyone and welcome. You are listening to Dispatches conversations about getting through the COVID crisis with community care, mutual aid, and personal and collective resilience. Today, we are sharing a conversation with Dean Spade about mutual aid, and I’m really excited about this because mutual aid has been something that has gained a lot of popular attention recently and as a pillar of this podcast. And I’ve been excited since we started the podcast to get Dean on the phone and have him help us shed some light on what mutual aid is, what it is not, common pitfalls that people fall into when attempting these projects and strategies for making it work. Dean is a prolific producer of incredibly insightful and pragmatic resources, and he is also very generous. He’s created two fantastic websites, deanspade.net and bigdoorbrigade.com.

Dean Spade has been active in movements to end poverty, criminalization, and immigration enforcement for over 23 years. In 2002, he founded the Sylvia Rivera Law Project, a nonprofit collective that provides free legal help to low income people and people of color who are trans, intersex and/or gender nonconforming, and works to build trans resistance rooted in racial and economic justice. He is the author of Normal Life, Administrative Violence, Critical Trans Politics, and the Limits of Law. And I’m your host Becka Tilsen. I’m an organizer, I move my baby, a semantics practitioner, and a mother living in Duwamish territory, otherwise known as Seattle.

We started this podcast and the tradition of our community organizing ancestors who taught us that we need each other, and that we have each other, that even in these unprecedented times, we collectively do have what it takes to meet this moment with creativity, love, and grit. So we’re going to start today’s show with a clip from a video Dean made that explains what mutual aid is. And I really encourage you to go to Dean’s website and watch the entire video, which is extremely informative and beautifully done. Here’s a short clip.

Shit is Totally Fucked Video:
Shit’s totally fucked, what can we do? A lot of us are overwhelmed, pissed, and scared. I don’t want to wait until the next election. I don’t want to just write my Congress person and hope that they’ll do the right thing. I don’t want to just post things to the vacuum of social media. I don’t want to just make statements about things, I want to change how things are. There are a zillion things we can do and people are coming up with new ones all the time. Mutual aid projects are a form of political participation in which people take responsibility for caring for one another and changing political conditions, not just through symbolic acts or putting pressure on their representatives and government but by actually building new social relations that are more survivable. The messages of this work are, the government is fucked, we can’t rely it, you are not alone, the system is the problem, not the person being targeted by it. And we’re going to take matters into our own hands and help each other survive right now, rather than expecting help from the same systems that have a clear history of causing harm.

Mutual aid projects don’t just help with the current disasters, they help us prepare for the ongoing disasters that are emerging because of climate chaos and crumbling infrastructure. When we build cooperative projects, practice making decisions together, share things, meet more people in our communities and learn about each other’s skills and needs, and learn how current systems work and how they are not working, we’re better prepared for the next storm, the next blackout, and the next budget cuts. The messages of this work are, the government is fucked, we can’t rely on it, you are not alone, the system is the problem, not the person being targeted by it. And we’re going to take matters into our own hands and help each other survive right now. When we build cooperative projects, practice making decisions together, share things, meet more people in our communities and learn about each other’s skills and needs, and learn how current systems work and how they are not working, we’re better prepared for the next storm, the next blackout, and the next budget cuts.

Becka Tilsen:
Welcome Dean, thank you so much for being here.

Dean Spade:
I’m glad to be here.

Becka Tilsen:
How are you doing? How’s your community? How’s your family?

Dean Spade:
It’s a real mixed bag. I think I’m feeling simultaneously a lot of concern for people I’m connected to inside prisons and people I don’t know inside prisons, and I’m feeling moved and inspired by all the work people are doing to get people out, and support people who are in prisons, support people who don’t have homes. And it’s a scary moment. It’s like, are we going to have all the right wing fantasies come true like closed borders, and no transit, and increased police presence profiling in every town? Are we going to have the left wing fantasies like income support and decarceration? It’s a period of extreme unknown. And so I think that lives in me with lots ups and downs.

Becka Tilsen:
Absolutely. Speaking of people coming together and trying to figure out new ways, mutual aid has been blowing up the scene. Lots of people are talking about it. You’ve been working within the model of mutual aid for many years and you just did this fabulous video that we just played. And I’m wondering if you could reflect to us about, why you think it’s blowing up, and what are the opportunities, and if any liabilities or things to be careful of about how popular it’s getting so fast and how many people are suddenly knowing what it is?

Dean Spade:
Yeah, that video that you just played is part of this project that I started around the time that Trump was elected called Big Door Brigade. What I was seeing was [inaudible 00:05:54] people who are really newly angry, and scared, and upset about this horrifyingly scary president coming into power and the kinds of things that were emerging on the border, and rollbacks on [inaudible 00:06:05] protections and… I mean, just so many things, right? I saw that and what I saw was that people were really being de-mobilized often because what they were being told to do with that anger was just click something on the internet, “Go to the ACLU site and promise that you’ll defend the constitution.” Totally meaningless online actions, or maybe they’re donating some type of work and then waiting to vote, or maybe going to once a year like women’s march. Because we live in a context in which there’s so many mass misunderstandings about how social change happens and we’re told it’s just when laws change, or it’s just something it leads to, or it’s just what nonprofit professionals do, or it’s just what charismatic individuals do.

Dean Spade:
I saw those misunderstandings being impediments to people actually taking this passion and rage they’re feeling and fear and getting to plug it in. And I wanted to lift up the framing of mutual aid, which obviously has been a part of my whole life as an activist and help people think together about, Oh, the real thing to do when we’re pissed and scared is to immediately build projects to support survival issues in our communities and do that from a perspective of like, Hey, these systems don’t work. They actually have to make things worse. We need something different. And there’s all these that happen around it, we talked about in more mainstream news outlets, which is so great. I think that promises of that are potentially that way more people get to have experiences of being in groups and actually engaging in collective action. Ideally mutual aid groups are doing their work in a way that’s got a critique of charity and social services.

Dean Spade:
So it’s not like we’re going to help the unfortunate and maybe judge them inside, which are the ones who are good enough to deserve help, which is what charity does, right? Because charities funded by rich people and usually affirms the existing system while it’s centralizing a few poor people getting help. [inaudible 00:07:44] on the other hand is typically people getting together and being like, this system is messed up. The people who are harmed by it aren’t to blame, it’s the system itself. Let’s do the immediate work together to support people and be part of this broader collective action strategies in our region, or in our state, or nationally, or globally to try to stop the root causes. Right? So ideally people right now are joining mutual aid projects in their neighborhood to help people get groceries, or pick up prescriptions or whatever the case may be, or they’re giving to these funds to help certain workers who aren’t eligible for benefits or whatever it is. And they’re learning more. So that’s the promise of it.

Dean Spade:
I think that there are a lot of pitfalls to mutual aid that are visible right now. One is that neutrally projects can replicate charity and saviorism or social services dynamics. If we say, Oh yeah, we’ll help people, but not people who use drugs and not people who have felonies, or only people that have these kinds of charges from the state or whatever. Those are typical picking out, who’s the good and the bad, or the deserving or undeserving in a particular group of people who need support or are suffering from some vulnerability. Another dynamic is creating projects that don’t have a root causes concern. So they are participating in the idea and you see this represented a new sometimes. I saw it, I remember after Hurricane Hugo people were rescuing each other in their boats and there’s this narrative in some of the books or business media, look at these entrepreneurs on their own boat and are helping each other out.

Dean Spade:
Almost an implication like, we don’t even need FEMA, we can just all volunteer to help each other. Reagan volunteerism story that we got in the 80s, let’s dump all state support and then you can just get help through your church or your family. That story is one that really collaborates with abandoning poor people to the worst conditions. So we don’t want a story about mutual aid that is aligned to the privatization of everything. And then end of all forms of social safety net because that’s super convenient to Democratic and Republican new liberal agendas. And then people’s own stuff can be saviorism inside that, can be like, I’m a hero because I volunteered this place once. That’s how we’re supposed to think about supporting each other. Once a year on Thanksgiving I go to the soup kitchen, it’s like the charity story of how we’re supposed to engage with each other.

Dean Spade:
And that is deeply depoliticized and isn’t about asking about root causes. It’s about stroking our own egos and being like, it almost feels like the charity thing like, I’m going to get into heaven because I did this kind of… All of that really misses the dynamics of how the harm that is experienced by the people on the bottom is what is making the people on the top so comfortable. One other thing I’ll mention is I think there’s a longterm danger of mutual aid projects being co-opted by the government or by corporations, by whoever’s in power. We want to be careful that we don’t build mutual aid products that are so complimentary to the various systems we’re trying to tear down. But instead that remain oppositional and that look out for that. And I don’t just become an accessory to the harm that those systems do.

Becka Tilsen:
Wow. It seems like so many important tensions, especially as you were saying, mutual aid projects can be OnRamps into movement. So you have people coming in with all sorts of perspectives and all of the ways like you said, that we’re just wired to fall back on the oppressive paradigms and they come through us without our knowledge. Charity, for example, and dominance, white supremacy. And there’s this tension between making a mutual aid effort really easy for people to jump onto and continuing to hold a very firm handle on an analysis. And I don’t know if you have any thoughts about that, but I was sitting with that as you were talking.

Dean Spade:
Yeah. I’ll say that a lot of my experiences with that are from being part of organizations that are prison abolitionist in orientation. Let’s say we’re doing work to stop a new jail or prison from being built or we’re doing work to stop some expansion of criminalization in some way, if we are in the criminal law or something. We’re doing some work that we can get abolition of. So it’s going to either keep people out of prison or suffers from expanding or whatever. And we want to get a lot of people involved in this campaign, whatever it is. We don’t want you to have to already be an abolitionist to do it. That’s not going to work. Most people never heard of abolition, right? We want people to be able to join because they’re mad about this particular thing. And then we want to embrace them, welcome them with their analysis, wherever it is, and be together on this activity.

Dean Spade:
And then also talk to each other about why it matters that we’re abolitionists. It might matter because we’re going to be presented with opportunity to make talking points about our issue. And we can give them, make them about how some people belong in prison and others don’t, or we can make them about how we should start building prisons. Right? All of that stuff. Right? So it comes up in the strategy. So it can be, I think useful for a group that’s starting out and has people in it who have different political analysis to make sure there’s a space where we can discuss our political analysis and try to influence each other while we also aren’t like, if you don’t already think exactly the way I do, you can’t come in. Because that’s just not going to work for building movements of hundreds of millions people, which is what we need if we’re going to win anything.

Dean Spade:
I think the other thing about it is people are coming into a group more really trying to get more people in our group from lots of parts of our communities. We don’t want to be so rigid with any of our politics that we start there. So you come to the meeting and you’ve never had a conversation about certain stuff, about trans liberation or disability justice or whatever. And you make a common mistake. We want to be kind, loving, relationship oriented while we tell you why we’re trying not to do that instead of jumping down your throat and having to be the first engagement we have with you as policing you. And I think this has really hard people because we want to be fierce and bold in our politics. And we also want to be spacious, and forgiving, and loving, and build enough sense of shared support that if someone makes a mistake in the room, we’re not also wounded by it, that we can’t lovingly bring them to a place where they might be like, Hey, [inaudible 00:13:31]. You don’t want to say that anymore because it hurt people’s feelings.

Becka Tilsen:
Or how about compassion for myself when I was that person who was new to something? I think about all of that as a real manifestation of white supremacy inside of our work and the binary that’s within white supremacy of good and bad. You are either with us or you’re not, you’re you get it or you don’t. And then that rigidity. To me, male domination and white supremacy together feel like such a cornerstone of those patterns.

Dean Spade:
Yeah, I agree. And one other thing I would say about white supremacy and that the patriarchy is that they’re really interested in how things look on the outside. And so it’s like in this meeting I need to look like I’ve got the right language and I need to be the first one to please you and tell you, you don’t more than I need to actually be like, how is this living in Niana? Is this going to be good for our group and good for bringing more people to the work of liberation? None of us are ever going to arrive at being perfect, politically perfect, pure. But when I’m doing that thing where I’m like, I’ve got to correct the other person in the meeting, I’m like, I’ve got to get on the right side of this binary right away. And I’ve got to arrive and have everyone see that I’m the perfect entire race system, the perfect… Whatever. That is about a culture steeped in punishment and a false idea of the good guys and the bad guys.

Becka Tilsen:
Yeah. The question I had is about advice you would give people who are just starting, either they want to start their own group or they want to come into a group that they don’t maybe even know anybody who’s doing it. Everything’s on emails and Google forms right now.

Dean Spade:
Yeah. I’m glad you asked this. I’m actually writing a quick turnaround book for [inaudible 00:15:05] right now about mutual aid and a lot of the book, a lot of what I’m trying to get in there is this stuff about what’s essential structure built inside a group that makes groups thrive and stick together because in reality, most of us have spent most of our lives in really, really crappy meetings. And in groups where there were somebody dominating it, a dad, or a principal, or a boss, or we didn’t get to make any decisions for ourselves where we are coerced into being in part of the group school or work or whatever. And so most of us had to have no experience being in a group [inaudible 00:15:37], nourishing, fun, energizing, satisfying experience.

Dean Spade:
So we need to actually pay a lot of attention to that piece. And there’s some elements of that that I think are really important. One is it’s really important for groups to get clarity on how they’re making decisions. A lot of times people just get together and they never have that conversation. And then it turns out like one charismatic, or dominant person, or a certain click are making all the decisions. Most groups I see fall apart, fall apart because they didn’t have any clarity around who’s going to make decisions. And then you spent the money, you didn’t ask the rest of us and we’re mad at you. Or I broke our relationship to this coalition because I was unhappy about something, but I didn’t ask anybody else or whatever. People making decisions without each other’s consent tends to produce a lot of conflict.

Dean Spade:
In general, when people have joined mutual aid groups, they’re going to do a bunch of work for free out of passion. And they need to have a say in how that work goes. Because that’s a right on thing as if you’re doing stuff together. I was saying that most of us are used to jobs where we don’t have a say in how it goes and that’s awful and exploited. And also less efficient because it doesn’t have the whole group’s wisdom bringing in together what would be the best way to do this. So figuring out a really clear decision making method is really essential. Having conversations with people about what leadership looks like, about trying to cultivate leadership. That’s about neutrality instead of domination. That’s really hard again because our culture hasn’t shown us that. What’s it like to have leadership that cultivates other people’s participation rather than just trying to get my idea through.

Dean Spade:
And when similarly having a conversation about group culture, organizations, all have cultures just right away, there’s a culture. Are we on time to meetings? Are we late? Do we sing or not? Do we rush or do we take our time? I mean all just endless cultural features. And so actually having an explicit conversation in the group, like what do we want it to feel like? What was a group you were in that felt really good? What felt good about it? What’s the group you were in that felt bad talking to each other about what would make it nice? And especially being able to welcome new people. The left has a hard time often welcoming new people. If we’ve got more work than we can do, which most mutually groups do, how are we going to make it bigger or make more people trained up to do this so that they start another group and another group? How are we going to do that?

Dean Spade:
And so it might mean we’re going to have special meetings or reorient people. We’re going to make sure that people come to meetings for the first time. They’re not confused by a bunch of [inaudible 00:17:49], but instead we give them the history. We’re going to make sure someone checks in with them before or after like, did you understand everything? We think you need to notice star. How do you want to plug in? We need to make it really, really, really welcoming, attractive instead of just wishing people would show up and hoping they do. I think other pieces that are essential, having facilitation. I think again just making decisions people often don’t think about it. They’re not like, Oh wow, facilitation is skill. Most of us don’t have a skill. We’ve never seen an active well in anybody we’ve ever turned our lives.

Dean Spade:
So there’s tons of stuff online for free about how to facilitate meetings. Well, just how to make sure everyone talked, how to use a go-round instead of just having people volunteer. So you make sure you hear from people who you don’t usually hear from. How to make sure that there’s an agenda. And then we start on time and end on time and that we actually know what’s on the agenda and everybody had a chance to get their stuff on if they needed to. And how much time roughly we’re giving each piece. Facilitation is like a lifelong skill because it’s ultimately about having people be able to come to a group and be in a group together, and feel dignity, and belonging, and safety. And then to make sure roles like facilitation, note-taking, timekeeping are rotated. How do we make sure that we are not further original by power dynamics that may exist by having the same people do the same things every time. I think all of that’s essential.

Dean Spade:
I think people should be starting mutual aid projects. It’s great to join them. But I’ve talked to several people in our region who were like, “Yeah, I’m waiting to call a mutual aid group to collect… to contact me back and then I’ll go help them.” And I’m like, “Maybe they’ve overwhelmed.” Some people think that a lot of groups like this should just be 20 people or less. And if they get bigger, we should just split off into more. Because then we can do more and we are in a more manageable group for making decisions. And then we can still coordinate with other groups in the area where we all want to stand up together and oppose the detention center. We all want to stand out together and push people to get released from Washington state prisons or whatever the case may be. The whole point of mutual aid was you can start now.

Becka Tilsen:
It seems like a lot of what you’re talking about revolves around new skills, around becoming self reflective as a group, sitting in with difference, and being inside of conflict. And I just love how you talk about conflict as something that just comes up, that it’s not this thing that marks only a bad group, but that it’s something that is so human and that we just have to figure out our way around it.

Dean Spade:
Yeah. One thing I’ll say about that, I think a lot of us experienced conflict as this incredibly heightened thing that happens after we’ve had to stuff our feelings for a really long time, we blow up or someone blows up about it at us. Or when we find out that someone’s been talking about us behind our backs. Anytime you do things that you care about with others, conflicts will eventually happen.

Dean Spade:
And that’s totally okay and reasonable for so many reasons, both because differences of opinion are legit, people have different wisdom perspectives. And also because we’ve all been trained in this society where we sometimes do really harmful things to each other. So conflict is going to happen for sure. And should not be a reason not to do stuff. And the best thing to do is think about how can we prevent a conflict. So ways to prevent conflict include giving direct feedback as soon as possible. So instead of me stewing on what you’ve been saying at these meetings for six weeks and then blowing up at you, could I earlier just go ahead and let you know, but when you say it this way really hurts me particularly things that makes me uncomfortable or whatever. And not talking about you behind your back.

Dean Spade:
Yes, maybe it makes sense sometimes to have a confidential conversation about an impact. I’m going to talk to my therapist or best friend about how it’s impacting me. I’m not going to talk to anybody else in the group behind your back about you and not tell you my concern. Certain things prevent conflict, like transparency in groups prevents conflict. Clarity about decision making and planning so that we don’t take on more than we can do and then we’re so stressed out, we’re mad at whoever promised a thing, all of that. So that I notice if I’m having dominance behaviors where I’m trying to decide for the whole group that we’re going to do this and that and this and that, but it’s really for my ego. All of that can really, really help us and just trying to keep our eye on competitiveness and other things that have been bred in us living in white supremacy, and capitalism, and patriarchy.

Dean Spade:
Ideally if we work in mutually groups together really carefully using these kinds of tools, we actually become new kinds of people who could live in the site we’re trying to build. Right now we are the people who were created by the society we live in. And that’s really hard and we’re really hard on each other and ourselves, but that is utterly transformable. But we have to actually, as you know well, practice, what’s it like to be flexible, but also have a lot of dignity and presenting what really matters to me, and also be like, I really want to hear what matters to other people. And what’s it like to give direct feedback even though I fear that the person will be blamed or they’ll be mad at me? What’s it like to receive direct feedback and be open to the possibility that you have something to learn?

Becka Tilsen:
Well, and there’s this tangible thing that we can actually do together. It seems like that’s one of the big benefits of the work. As you can see, I did this thing and now such and such person has [inaudible 00:00:22:25].

Dean Spade:
I mean, one thing I’ll say that was too… I think we’ve talked about this before, Becka, but a lot of people who are in our age group, mid 40s, a lot of people I know who were really radically involved when we were young, stopped being involved. And one of the main reasons people stopped being involved is because of conflict in groups. And sometimes people say, burnout, but I often think when you dig deep with them, the burnout actually was that there was conflicts and they felt really hurt and really not seen.

Dean Spade:
So we need to pay a lot of attention to the dynamics in groups, because we could either be, right now in this moment where some people are joining groups, we can either be giving people satisfying experiences of collective action and care, or we could be giving people new stories about how it’s hopeless to try to do anything to anyone else. People are awful and I just need to stay alone and be with my political beliefs without actually getting to exercise them. And that would be such a loss. But I do think the more we share our skills with each other around, creating good group dynamics, the more power this time we’ll build.

Becka Tilsen:
Yeah. Do you have anybody that you’re calling on, that’s speaking to you, or that you’re thinking about, or any way that your ancestors that you’ve claimed are preparing you for this moment?

Dean Spade:
That’s a really great question. Recently I’ve actually doing a bunch of different kinds of engagement around an ancestry on my dad’s side of the family, my dad’s a Holocaust refugee, his family’s from Germany. They came here in 1938. I have been thinking about just their whole long ancestral lineage. So many time the world has ended for so many groups of people.

Dean Spade:
It’s just interesting to think about how people have held on to care connection to tradition, spirituality, their values. It’s interesting to see there are moments in history. People took those openings and made something that was more what they believed in instead of less. There’s also obviously immense tragedy. And for me, this moment feels like practice for every climate change disaster that is coming, that are just going to keep coming. And so I guess I’m just like, wow, the illusion that I ever had that I knew what was going to happen next is obviously complete bullshit as it always has been for all people for all the time. And the question really is, how do I be of service in this intense time to the best of my ability with humility and care. And how do I step into a bigger timeline?

Dean Spade:
That’s what the answer to your question does in this psych. I feel like we’re at the planetarium and we’re backing out and seeing how huge the earth is and how little we are, how huge time is and how little my spark of life is for eight or nine decades, I hope. And it relaxes me because I’m like, Yeah, I’m part of this stream. I’m part of all the people who’ve ever tried to care for each other and fight the power. And I’m also part of all the people who have known so little, all we know is just… They are little life experiences and whatever others can share with us. Now we’re open to hearing. It’s relieving to let the mystery be where I am and to acknowledge that there is fear there and not that illusion of control that especially living in these systems asks us to have. If we’re privileged, stable, living situation is really important to release in order to see what the next right action is.

Becka Tilsen:
I’m so glad I asked you, that was very grounding for me to hear. And I resonated with so much of it. It’s like our ancestors were also very afraid. There was just something when you said that at the end about being afraid that called to me, that was like, Oh right, being afraid does not mean that everything’s going down.

Dean Spade:
Yeah. And also there’s needs to be so much room for grief because people are literally dying in thousands. And so it’s like also not to do that thing that capital’s asked us to do, which is like, “Look on the bright side.” Fuck that. No. Let’s look at how fucking horrible it is and support each other right now. And also find moments of care and try and polish about relating. It’s all we can do.

Becka Tilsen:
Thank you everyone for tuning into Dispatches. So we have abundant show notes for this episode and you can find them on our website @dispatchespodcast.com. As I said, Dean’s two sites are chalked full of goodies. And Dean wanted to especially point out a few to you, including a chart that will help stimulate discussion about the differences between mutual aid groups and charity and social service groups, tools that might help people struggling with mental health and wellness during this time, a syllabus about mutual aid for a class that Dean taught and lots and lots of COVID mutual aid resources. I want to dedicate today’s episode to Lorena Borjas, who died of complications related to COVID. Lorena has been called the mother of the transgender Latinx community. I’ll include some articles in the show notes, but you can also just Google her. I didn’t know her, but from what I’ve read and heard from friends who did know her, she led an incredible life of action propelled by the values central to mutual aid.

Becka Tilsen:
The New York Times wrote that when the trans community needed an HIV clinic, she made her apartment in Queens into a clinic. That’s one of many stories about Lorena that you can find at our show notes or just on the web. Rest in power Lorena Borjas, chosen ancestor of many. Dispatches is a kitchen dance party production, producers are myself, Becka Tilsen, Basil Shadid, and Molly Tilsen. Today’s episode was edited by the lovely Basil Shadid. Many thanks to all of our friends and supporters. Please rate and review us, please tell your friends about us. And until next time remember that we need each other and we have each other.